 | FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
I write this in response to one of my friends who is studying Greek and came across this problem. I think it might be useful to some of you though, too. It seems they rarely really teach in Greek classes the way Greek people shorten words into contracted forms. They do somewhat, for instance "se" and "to" becomes "sto", but there are many others that go undiscussed, but are so common and so different that (1) you are unlikely to understand if you don't look out for them; and (2) you sound silly not doing them when you speak [as you get more advanced at least]. I will give some examples: [A] random things I have it = To'xw [to exw] I/you/she will come = tha'rthw/tha'rtheis/tha'rthei [tha erthw] I (verb) it to you = Sto (i.e., sto dinw=I give it to you)[sou to dinw] I had told you it = Sto'xa pei [sou to eixa pei] I have told you it = Sto'xw pei [sou to exw pei] [B] past tense Whenever you have a past tense that requires you to add an "e" or sometimes an "h" in front (like, exasa or hthela) and any short related precedes it, you should drop the "e" or "h" and put the emphasis that would be on that letter on the short word. For examples: Tha ithela = Tha'thela [I would like] To exasa = To'xasa [I missed/lost it] Tou edosa = Tou'dosa [I gave him] To ekana = To'kana [I did it] Ti ekanes? = Ti'kanes? [what did you do?] Ti eyine? = Ti'yine? [what happened? what's the matter?] -------------- These are some that came to mind, there are several more I am sure, but just look out for it. It's hard to catch if you aren't suspecting. It all started because my friend was listening to the song "gigolo" and there is a line where she says "sto'xa pei, sto'xa pei, mh paizeis me ta spirta, kalhnyxta." Not knowing, my friend heard it as "sto xapi" (in the pill), which sounds exactly the same, and said "that makes no sense!" Anyway, she is really saying "I had told you it, don't play with matches, good night" [also, doesn't make that much sense...hee hee] |
| Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
FYI you are totally wrong buddy!Maybe you just didn't happen to go to a Greek school to know them, or maybe you were daydreaming when it was taught  To avoid confussion it would be better to leave someone with good ground on grammar to explain those things and avoid DIY.....First of all these contractions are not random at all There is a very simple rule: They can be applied only to the following cases: 1)Σου το=Σ'το 2)When in two consequent words the second starts from the same (or same sounding) vowel the first ended, you just skip one for better flow of speech: Στου Ουρανού = Στ'ουρανού Στα Αμπέλια = Στ'Αμπέλια 3)When you have Στο and Το followed by a two syllable word starting with an ι (or same sounding vowel) or three syllable word starting with ε, toned at the first syllable: Σου το (Στο) είχα = Σ'το 'χα Το ήπια = Το 'πια Σου το (Στο) έδωσα = Σ'το 'δωσα 4)When you have To or Στο followed by a two or three syllable word starting with α toned in the first or second syllable: To ακούω = Τ'ακούω To άκουσα = Τ'άκουσα Το άρχισα = Τ'άρχισα Στο Αγρίνιο = Στ'Αγρίνιο Στο Αρκάνσας = Στ'Αρκάνσας Not to remind you the typical vulgar expression of indifference lool (Στ'αρ.........) Also these just don't exist in Greek: Ti ekanes? = Ti'kanes? [what did you do?] Ti eyine? = Ti'yine? [what happened? what's the matter?] I think that's all maybe someone more into grammar will add any I might have left *Notice that Στο=to, while Σ'το=Σου το~Το you |
| Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
(1) I am confused how you have demonstrated that I am "totally wrong." The only thing that you write that contradicts what I wrote is (1) my characterization of those examples as "random;" and (2) that contractions aren't made with "ti." "Totally wrong" einai yperbolh, den einai? (2) Moreoever, it's not so much "grammar" as it is oral convention. This is evident because it is not grammatically incorrect to say "Σου το είχα"; indeed, this is how it is normally written, as opposed to "Σ'το'χα" which is how it is often said. (3) Also, this isn't completely true: "First of all these contractions are not random at all . . . There is a very simple rule: They can be applied only to the following cases," because none of your rules explains "apo edw", which is said "apo'dw;" or "kata eutheian" which is said "kat'eutheian." Euxharistw pantws gia ti bohtheia sou... |
| Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
| Oh, and what about "apo to" becoming "ap'to"... |
| Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
Oh these are explained by the hiatus (χασμωδία) rule! :D To avoid a hiatus you "loose" one of the two vowels. Note: It is a grammatical rule. The contractions do not happen any old how do they? The fact that you do not HAVE to contract doesn't mean that there's no rule governing the contraction does it? Theodore what happened to Mr Manners eh? :D |
| Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
No, it doesn't mean that there is no rule (you are right and I thought about this when I wrote it....hee hee), but I guess I was saying that it is common in spoken Greek, but I have never ever ever ever seen it written except in novels when they are quoting someone SPEAKING or in song lyrics. Thus, it never gets transferred to foreign speakers of Greek. Maybe it does, but I have not seen a Greek language book that contains any information about "To'xw." Is there on this site? That was my only point. This might seem sort of "meta", but what is a rule anyway? I mean, a rule is only useful to the extent that it helps you to figure out how other examples should be treated. While it is true that some of the rules (the "to" plus words stressed on first syllable one, for example) are helpful, the so-called hiatus "rule" is not a rule at all, but an explanation of natural occurrences (that have no pattern) in the spoken language. Rules should explain patterns, right? What is the pattern with "ap'to", "ap'odw", "kat'eutheian", etc.??? I don't know it if there is one. Irene, does your boyfriend speak Greek? |
| Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
Yeah, why can't I say "ti'yine" for example? How is that in any material or substantial way different than "to'xw". It's not. That's why calling it a rule begs the question somewhat, I mean, it is a rule only because it exists that way in the language in this one instance. This is why I much prefer the American parenting style of answering things (because that's how it is, that's why) to the Greek parenting style of trying to classify and make spontaneous rules about things instead of just acknowledging that there is no "norm." All in all, it is obvious to me that Greek grammar "rules" were invented by Greek parents.  |
| Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
@Irene:What about manners?I didn't swear anyone did I? :P lol @At thread started: You were totally wrong by presenting your personal guess work as a standard (remember that "random" thingy?) Also you were wrong including non-existant phrases and in general, trying to establish a format (your own to be exact) in order to explain things yourself does not clearly possess, leading non advanced and non native speakers to wrong conclusions and frustration lool....Anyways I hope next time you are willing to post some how-to/tutorial, better not be your patern but something standard and more to the official, cause these are being read and applied by people who have no option but to believe what they read...so grab your grammar book, read what applies where and then post cause random and language/grammar don't match, especially when we're discussing for a 2500+ years old language sorry, you did not invent the wheel PS: as about not explaining apo'dw and kat'eytheian,I was hoping my last statement in the first post would cover you: "I think that's all maybe someone more into grammar will add any I might have left" |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
Theodore, I am not sure if it is your tenuous grasp of the English language or your real attitude that is responsible for the tone and content of your responses. But you are kinda silly, man. I didn't pretend I made anything up. I was pointing out patterns in the way GREEK PEOPLE spoke. Just because I didn't frame it as being inspired by rules, the message became the same. Actually, all you did is reclassify the information I already gave, which, though interesting, didn't add anything substantive. For example, I said "I told it to you" is said "S'to'xa pei" and you said that, too. You called it one thing; I called it another. Why cares? Listen to your argument: you are saying that because I didn't identify the rule, I am claiming to have created a grammar rule; that is preposterous. If you are mad that I observed the pattern without formal education, then I can't help you there. I did. It would be like saying: "I've noticed that when people speak English they but "an" instead of "a" in front of words that start with vowels." And then me coming on here and saying THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG. There is a RULE that you but "an" in front of words that start with vowels. IT'S THE SAME THING! [By the way, it is only words that SOUND like they start with vowels, so in front of "one," for example, "a one and only true love," you don't use "an", you use "a"...] The irony is that you said that those were the limited situations where this "rule" applied. My examples covered ALL those situations. All you did is reorganize it into rules (that you prefuntorily described but did not name). What did you add, Theodore? Specifically and concretely, what did your "rule" add? Your logical flaw is so painfully basic that it I can't even explain it well. I think you are really mad because I am not "Greek" and I am helping people on this site. If that's your complaint, then just voice it. Also, I note that when Greg Bush (not Greek, I suppose) makes mistakes you are not there to correct it right away. It all goes back to hating on the Greek Americans...it gets old, bro. Last, I might point out that my native Greek langauge is Tsakonian dialect, not the Greek you speak. MY language is thousands of years old, YOURS is only a few centuries old. Let's keep it real. And the rules you gave are certainly not from older Greek(I mean, I don't think Aristotle was saying "s'to'xa pei" XA XA XA XA). |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
Also, they don't have "no choice but to believe"...they TOO can look into grammar books. I was just trying to make people aware of it, because I have yet to see it in a foreign language grammar book (or any for that matter). Tell me which book it's in and on what page? |
| Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
Wow so many words yet no sense at all... Anyway, I apologize for making you feel that way, it was not intended to be that way, altough I do fail to understand where do all these speculations about me being biased on your roots derive from.....I do have a serious attitude problem with people who use speculations, guess work and personal opinion on technical issues such as those we face in this technical - language learning forum, cause I find it irresponsible if not iritative when someone posts his opinion, his speculations and presents it as a technically solid standing rule.. To explain further what I mean I will give you a very simple example: It is totally unacceptable and totally wrong for a driving school to encourage future drivers to start from 1st gear then move to 2nd till they reach 5th (or 6th if they own a sports car  ) randomly.It happens for a good solid reason and on a specific pattern, and if the teacher does really want to help the student, should explain why and how, rather than just saying "you swap gear when you feel like or according to what you ate last night randomly".That's all I expect from someone who tries to help people understand, and that's my argument here with you...PS.I will refrain myself from replying to some of your pretty flaming remarks accordingly for the moment being, as I believe that bottom line is we all are here to help, but have no doubt that I will be correcting anyone who might be wrong somewhere as well as I am open to correction when I am wrong.. |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
If you really think your example and what happened here are analogous then I am worried about you. I will drop the discussion about the rules and the technical stuff, because I think you just aren't going to get it. But, as for the "roots" thing, it is apparent. People come on here all the time who don't speak Greek that well and try to help each other saying, "hey, I think it's this or that," and you might correct them, but you don't insult them. You do it to me because I am of Greek descent. I have never claimed to be a native speaker or to know all the ins and outs of Greek grammar. Quite oppositely, I pointed out early on that I am Greek-American and have never had formal language training, and on top of that, speek Tsakonika (Doric) at home, not demotic Greek (Attic). Nobody was hurt by my post. You act like I got them into a car accident (actually, you literally imply that). Bottom line: if they use what I told them, they would be doing it correctly, am I wrong? If anything, my explanation was incomplete, not wrong. Me sygxorite, alla twra prepei na parw thlefwno sto trellokomeio na tous pw oti efyge enas... |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
| Mhpws tha protimouses na milhseis ellhnika na mporeseis va ekfrasteis kalytera...den mporw na pistepsw oti pragmatika theleis na peis ta hlithia pragmata pou byainoun apo to stoma sou. |
| Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
| Ελπίζω οι moderators/administrators του forum να τα βλέπουν αυτά και να προχωρήσουν στις απαραίτητες ενέργειες προκειμένου να σταματήσει αυτή η γελοιότητα, αλλίως το εγγυάμαι ότι θα ξεφύγει η κατάσταση, και οι φίλοι μας θα μάθουν και "γαλλικά" |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
| Twra eisai esy to thyma??????? |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
oute ta ellhnika den grafeis swsta??? einai asteia ola auta??? |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
Τι θα λέγατε να σταματήσετε και οι δύο? Έτσι που μπήκε κατά κάποιον τρόπο και το Δωρικό ζήτημα στη μέση το πάτε για νέο Πελοποννησιακό μου φαίνεται. Για να καλμάρουμε όλοι λίγο. Εκτός αν μαζί με τα μαθήματα ελληνικών θέλετε να δώσετε στους ξένους και ένα μάθημα στο πώς μπορούμε να τσακωνόμαστε σαν το κοκόρια για ψύλλου πήδημα. Δε λέω, χρήσιμο μάθημα για όποιον θέλει να έρθει να μείνει στην Ελλάδα, αλλά είναι για προχωρημένους μαθητές της Ελληνικής πραγματικότητας. M.Nerses νομίζω ότι παρα είσαι ευαίσθητος με το γεγονός ότι είσαι ΕλληνοΑμερικάνος καλέ μου. Με γεια σου με χαρά σου. Ιδέαν δεν είχα και θα μου κάνει μεγάλη εντύπωση αν το ήξερε ο Theodore. Το ενδογλωσσικό με τα Τσακώνικα και την παλαιότητα διαφόρων διαλέκτων και τα λοιπά δεν το έπιασα. Μίλησε κανείς περιφρονητικά για τα Τσακώνικα, τα Ποντιακά, τα Κρητικά ή τα Μανιάτικα (για να αναφέρω μερικές διαλέκτους) και μου ξέφυγε; Κάποιος μίλησε περιφρονητικά για την Κοινή διάλεκτο της Νέας Ελληνικής όμως.... ¶στο να πάει άστο και πιάστε άλλο σκοπό βρε παιδί μου! Theodore δηλαδή βρε πουλάκι μου μόνο αν πεις κάποιον μα***α πιάνει για βρισιά; Ξεχνάς μου φαίνεται ότι εδώ μιλάμε για φόρουμ όχι για συζήτηση πρόσωπο με πρόσωπο κατά την οποία ακόμα και τα φάσκελα επιτρέπονται γιατί υπάρχουν οι μη λεκτικές ενδείξεις για το πώς εννοείς ό,τι εννοείς. Εν πάσει περιπτώσει εγώ προσωπικά θα το έβρισκα τουλάχιστον ενοχλητικό αν μου έλεγες πήγαινε μάθε πριν μιλήσεις ακόμα κιαν κατεβάζαμε ουζάκια στο Τουρκολίμανο. Τον ξέρεις κι από χτες τον Νέρσες βρε συ; Αν ναι, κάνω πάσο, αν όχι πιάσε κι εσύ άλλο σκοπό (αν και απαγορεύω και στους δύο το Γειά σου Μαρία ή το Κομσί Κομσά) Προτείνω δε να τα βάλετε και οι δύο μαζί μου μετά το μίνι κύρηγμα. :D |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
You are right, Irene. Thanks for mediating. But, I am not "ευαίσθητος" about being Greek-American. Maybe it seems that way, but I was just responding to what I perceive to be attitudes I have encountered (maybe they don't apply here). On a side note, I am happy for the "ξένους", now they have an interesting text to read to learn Greek from! Theodore, εκεχειρία?  |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
The Greek-American question is very interesting. I think that most people haven't really "caught up" on hyphenated identities. This is especially true in a largely homogenous society like Greece, but is true to some degree everywhere. There is a notion that Greek-Americans are neither "Greek" nor "American" so they are "xamenoi" (lost), somehow trapped between the two. The truth is "Greek-American" is ITSELF an identity. We don't have to be Greek or American. Partially to blame for the dislike of Greek-Americans (which to some extent you deny, but I have personally experienced) is the following: (1) Greeks who leave for other countries and come back acting like they are better than their relatives; which is obnoxious; (2) Greek-Americans (or Greek-Anything) that visit and say things like "this is nice to visit but I couldn't live here;" also obnoxious. I would hate people like that, too! (3) Greek people over-greekifying (like in Big Fat Greek Wedding) and embarassing Greek people. Again, I understand that is annoying, too. I AM NOT LIKE THAT. That's all I have to say. I hate when things like that are assumed about me. I love Greece and my Greek relatives (whom I write to all the time). Also, I fully plan on taking my Greek/EU passport and living there sometime in my life once I have enough money...I will buy a place in Xania or something and never look back to the U.S. Loipon. Paw sto gymnasthrio... |
| Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
"Irene ημίν" λοιπόν |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
| hi wud u like 2 know me cos im bored i need help on somethin i posted and plz help thanks bye |
| Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: Re: Απάντηση: FYI: Word "Contractions" |
|
I was reading your discussion and got curious to see where will it go so obviously it was kinda upsetting when you switched to greek. It's way too difficult for me ( i just finished lesson30) to translate this. I asked my husband, who is, by the way, greek-american to help but it was even too difficult for him (unfortunately, he has a quite limited vocabulary) :P -take it |
