 | θέλω in the past tense? |
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I am learning modern Greek. I'm from Poland. Could you tell me what is the difference between: ήθελα (Imperfect) and θέλησα (aorist)? Both words mean "I wanted". So, is there any difference between them? Is there any most favourite form of the verb in the past? |
| Re: θέλω in the past tense? |
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In principle, the aorist indicates a completed past event "from the outside", i.e. without looking at the possible "structure" of the event, while the imperfect focuses on that very "structure" of that event, and indicates continuous and/or repeated actions. However, in the case of θέλω, things break down a bit, since "wanting" is not usually an action that has an internal structure. "I was wanting to go home" doesn't make much sense. As a result, in Greek the aorist and the imperfect of θέλω both took on the same generic past meaning, and effectively mean exactly the same. Also, the imperfect form is by far the most commonly used of the two, so you'll here more often ήθελα than θέλησα (I've yet to hear a single Greek person actually use this last form). To sum up, the two forms have the same meaning, and the imperfect is by far the most commonly used form. Cheers! |
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This post is inspired by pure curiosity, so please do not understand it as arguing just for the sake of arguing. In studying French I ran into the difference between j'ai voulu and je voulais which is the difference between passé simple and imparfait, corresponding, presumably, to the difference between the Greek imperfect and what is here called aorist (I thought this term was out of fashion). I eventually learned that the French difference was one of "aspect," a grammatical category that most language courses don't seem to explain in any detail but which covers the "contour" of an action or state ... over time. In this French example it was the difference between imperfective (not imperfect) aspect and inchoative (start to) aspect. So my question is whether there might not exist the same aspectual difference among Greek verbs, even though instances of it may be rare. The simple past might be I started to want and the imperfect I was wanting. The difference in modern Greek is expressed, I know, by ancillary and periphrastic verb form, but maybe the differece noted here could be a kind of historical holdover relic that no one pays attention to but which still exists. Also, please let me point out that, on a just-landed airplane, I heard a man say to a woman, "Were you wanting me to get your luggage down?" I took this to be an example of imperfectivizing and already imperfective verb (with its aspect already built in from the lexicon) and I think most speakers of English would consider this substandard. I view it as just another example of incipient language change. Good wishes, Blake More |
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Well, let me just add a few things then. First, a full disclaimer: I am a native French speaker. The form "j'ai voulu" isn't the passé simple (which has died out in Spoken French, and is only used in writing) but the passé composé. However, in principle you're right: the difference is one of aspect, exactly the same as that between the aorist and the imperfect in Modern Greek. However, that difference isn't between imperfective and inchoactive, but between imperfective and perfective, i.e. between looking at an action as taking a certain amount of time, or looking at an action as a black box without looking at its time duration but only at its position in time. Also, just one thing to add: in French "j'ai voulu" is hardly ever used, and I know of no context where you couldn't use "je voulais" instead. So even in French the equivalent of the aorist form of this verb isn't used much. Historically you're right, there was a strict difference between the aorist and the imperfect (just like there is between the passé composé and the imperfect in French). However, at least for the verb "to want", it makes little sense, and thus is disappearing in both languages, and at least it's never been about inchoactive vs. imperfective, only about perfective vs. imperfective (i.e. looking at a black box vs. looking at what makes it tick). |
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I must thank you for correcting my admittedly egregious error in calling the passé composé by the name of passé simple and I hope you will accept my shame-faced apologies for making such a mistake. It was not, however, a confusion. Rather, I misspoke. In 2001 during a course I took at the Alliance Fr. in Paris one of my fellow students was corrected for saying je voulais instead of j'ai voulu to indicate her immediate reaction to something her husband had said. I think she said "Je voulais le tuer." This is what I meant about the difference between the inchoative (notice the correct spelling) as distinct from imperfective aspect. In English a periphrasis has necesarily to be used, while in Spanish the preterite (simple past) does the same job without any auxiliary. So I think my question might be: Is it possible in Greek to use just the aorist to say, for example, "I began to want more money?" By the way, there are some items on your blog that I would like to discuss with you, but this does not seem to be the place to do it, and I do not know how to contact you. Please let me know. Good wishes, Blake More |
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You still haven't understood my main message: the passé composé can never have an inchoative meaning. The only way to translate that in French is to use the periphrastic "commencer à". Anyone telling you otherwise is wrong, and shame on them if they were actually teaching you French that way! As for your fellow student, lacking more context I can't definitely answer, but to me "je voulais le tuer" would be the correct way to say "I wanted to kill him". "J'ai voulu le tuer" would only be used in Written French, never in actual speech. It sounds archaic. And in any case it wouldn't have an inchoative meaning, since it implies that you wanted to kill that person in the past but don't want to anymore (an inchoative aspect would indicate that you started to want to kill him, and still want to now). The same is true of the Greek aorist. It just indicates a past tense, completely detached from the present, and without regards to its structure. It has never had an inchoative meaning. |
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Of course I get your main message and I thank you for delivering it. I also thank Greg Brush for his always valuable input. It is painful to give up the lame understandings (or misunderstandings) one has cherished for a long time and replace them with new and better information. This is what most people call learning, and I love to learn things new and old. You did not tell me how to contact you so I can make a few observations on items from your blog. Please do let me know. Good wishes, Blake More |
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I hope I didn't come up as harsh and unfeeling. My writing style can be very dry sometimes. As for contacting me, are you talking about my Blogspot blog called Columns of the Christophoronomicon? (given that I don't use the blog facility here, I don't see an alternative) If so, please just use the commenting facility there, or contact my on Google+. I don't normally share any other contact info for obvious reasons  . |
